Are Pesticides with Permethrin Safe?

Recently my vet treated one of my goats with a product called Ultra Boss to take care of her lice. She just poured a little down Xande's spine and within a day she had stopped scratching, and within two days so had her kids even though they were not treated. I thought it was so amazing and wondered if it would work on my dogs for mosquitoes and ticks.

I couldn't remember what it was called so I went to Cal Ranch and read the labels and got what I thought was right. The label said it could be used on outdoor dogs as well so I was really excited. But then I found it it was a spray on and not a pour on. I liked the pour-on idea because the animals would be less likely to lick it. So I dug through my notes from the vet and found out the name of the real  product and went back and picked that one up. But Ultra Boss does not say you can use it on dogs. I looked up the chemicals in the two products and they both used the same ones. I wondered why it would be okay on one but not the other, so I started researching all the pesticides used in tick collars and dog-specific pesticides.

It turns out all these products use the exact same, or nearly the same chemicals. And they are also the same chemicals used in mosquito foggers (as well as many plant pesticides and lice shampoos for humans). I had researched mosquito fogging before and got frustrated. All the information stating they were safe were from people who sell the chemicals, or from governments who needed to defend their decision to use them. All I could find was the recommendation to bring pets inside and close windows during fogging (except one website that said to open your windows so mosquitoes in your house could be killed). I decided if it wasn't safe for people and  pets then I didn't want the spray on my property and put myself on the no-spray list.

But this time I decided to research the specific chemicals in the pesticides because it should lead to less biased information. Here is what I found:

Permethrin and its synthetic counterparts work by binding to sodium ions that assist the nervous system in communicating. It blocks their movement and causes paralysis, temperature increases, repetitive motions, and other symptoms. It is usually paired with a chemical called piperonyl butoxide which prevents the organism from flushing toxins out of their bodies.

I proceeded to read through studies done on effects of the chemicals. Most I found were specifically to test the safety of using them on military clothing. In the trials various animals, mostly mice, were fed varying doses of permethrin. The essence of the results as I understood it were this:

Permethrins

Evidence of ill-effects:

• skin irritation in rabbits
• slight increase in fetal death in rabbits 
• less bone growth for rabbits in utero
• extra ribs and low birth weight in rat fetuses
• increased liver weight in dogs and mice
• lung tumors in mice
• urological problems in mice
• tremors and seizures on animals while exposed to high levels of permethrin gas
• skin and eye irritation, itching, and burning in humans

Evidence of safety:

•  used by pregnant women to treat lice and scabies; no women in the studies experienced complications
• In most cases only animals fed the highest doses of permethrin showed ill effects

It seems as though there are a lot of potential ill effects, although I have to take into consideration other information. One thing is that the animals were being fed high concentrations of permethrin. If my interpretation of the conclusions is right, I would need to drink about 1 cup of pure permethrin per day in order to develop a tumor or cancer. Permethrin is not easily absorbed through the skin so exposure from touching it would be significantly less. This is why it was concluded to be safe to use in military uniforms. Also, most of the commercial forms of it are diluted or intended to be diluted with water before application.

After reading those stats I figure that even over time exposure to it isn't going to do much. It makes me rethink being on the no-spray list for mosquito fogging. At the same time, if it is used regularly on livestock, pets, hay, fruit, other produce, lice, and also restaurant kitchens and such, and combined with exposure to other various chemicals in our environment I still am slightly concerned about the buildup. There also have not been any studies on effects to the endocrine system. 

I decided to research how long it takes for permethrins to exit the body and break down in the environment. After 24 hours half of it was gone from the bodies of rats, but I couldn't find information on how long it takes to completely leave the system. Also, it is combined with piperonyl butoxide which inhibits the ability to clear toxins and these studies were done solely on permethrins. 

Permethrins also take time to break down in the environment. In some studies done where it was exposed to sun on a wooden windowsill 60% of it was still there after several months. It stays in the soil even longer, although it tends to bind to the soil and stay there rather than get absorbed into other plants or washed with water runoff. But it can still be in the soil where children and animals touch and carry it. 

It is also highly toxic to fish and aquatic animals so it should not be applied to the air or plants and animals near water. Mammals and birds are not so affected by it so that is less of a concern (with the exception of cats who have difficulty breaking down many chemicals, including essential oils). One should also consider effects to the ecosystem because it also kills beneficial insects such as bees and ladybugs. 

Piperonyl butoxide

Evidence of ill-effects:

• passes through milk in animals
• passes through eggs in chickens
• liver cancer and tumors in dogs, rats, and mice
• intestine and thyroid cancers in other lab animals
• low maternal weight gain and possible miscarriage in rats 
• fused and extra fingers and toes of offspring of rats exposed in  utero
• found in some organs, meat, eggs, and especially fat of skin-exposed chickens 

Evidence of safety:

• no evidence of endocrine disruption in mammals
• monkey studies 6 weeks long showed no ill effects
• studies of goats showed no ill effects
• humans fed very small quantities showed no ill effects of the liver 
• 87-99% left the bodies of rats through urine and feces within 48 hours
• when applied to human skin, only 2% of the dose was absorbed in 30 minutes
• did not affect breakdown of one drug when humans ate a small dose
• breaks down quickly (half life of about 8 hours in water and 4 hours in air and 13 days in soil)
• very little moves to other parts of a plant after spraying

From my view, the piperonyl butoxide is a bit more concerning than the permethrin because it seems to have more negative effects and passes into parts of animals that are eaten by humans more readily. At the same time, it breaks down and is cleared from our systems more quickly.

Overall, I think the doses are small enough that I wouldn't let a goat suffer through lice all winter long if I could find no better alternative, and would apply sparingly to pregnant goats. Despite the label saying it is not contraindicated with slaughter, because chemicals were found in edible tissues of chickens I would not use it within 3 weeks of slaughter. I also prefer to seek alternatives to treating lice in goats and preventing ticks and mosquitoes from biting dogs. Neem oil is next on my research list. 

Sources: 

Wikipedia: permethrin

Wikipedia: piperonyl butoxide

National Pesticide Information Center, permethrin

National Pesticide Information Center, piperonyl butoxide
Toxipedia: Permethrin

Neurotixicity of permethrin

Reproductive and developmental toxicity of permethrin

Acute and short term toxicity of permethrin 

EPA Permethrin Facts

Carcinogenicity of permethrin 

Permethrin in dogs and cats

Permethrin for dogs

Florida department of agriculture, permethrin 

Nail Trimming

I am not a pro at nail trimming by any means, but I have had a lot of friends mention troubles trying to trim their dogs' nails so I thought it would be a good thing to address.

My first Dog, Daizy's nails got really overgrown. I hate to admit it, but I didn't realize nail trimming was a thing. I've only had cats who tend to take care of their own nails. I only read about it after she had gone through the winter without a trim. I found that the Millers Forge nail clippers were highly recommended so I ordered a pair. I went to trim Daizy's nails and learned that she really hated anyone touching her paws.

I really liked this video on the Kikopup YouTube channel explaining how to help your dog relax for nail trimming. I did this with Daizy. It was a slow process and for awhile I could only trim one nail a day. But that way at least they were getting trimmed once every 10 days.

Essentially you make good things happen every time the dog sees the nail clippers--lots of praises and treats. Do it in a calm, comfortable place. Then step-by-step work on making the process comfortable and not scary: touch the paws without clippers, put clippers near the paws but not touching, clip the air nearby, touching the paws with the clippers without clipping, etc. Eventually you work up to just one clip. Then add more. Each step is followed by praises and treats. Don't move on to a new one until they are comfortable with the previous one. If the dog starts to get uncomfortable take a step back or end the session. You don't want any bad memories associated with the process.

If you keep trimming overgrown nails back regularly the quick (which is where the blood flow enters the nail) begins to recede so they can get shorter over time. That cute clicking of nails on the hard floor isn't supposed to happen, so you want to make the quick recede until the dog can walk without the nail putting pressure on the floor. That pressure can cause pain for the dog, which can then cause other problems. A great resource for proper nail trimming is the Nail Maintenance for Dogs Facebook Group.

The trimming experience will be different with each dog. I got my pup, Hera, at five months old and I don't think she'd ever had her nails trimmed, so she didn't like her paws being touched either. With her, I actually taught the "shake" cue first, and used it to get her used to her paws being touched and squeezed. Now I can ask for a shake and then quickly trim her nails before I let go of her paw. To do the back legs I just rub her belly and then she rolls onto her back. I got her used to me touching and squeezing her back feet and then started trimming. Her back feet are still hard because she wants me to stop and rub her belly, but if I get one of my kids to give the belly rub it's a cinch.

Zeus likes to keep his feet on the ground so I usually trim his while he is standing or sitting. It's a little awkward but it works. I tried using "shake"  on him as well, but he still prefers me to trim with his feet on the ground so that's what we usually do.

Trimming Zeus' nails. 

Daizy's Story: the short version (still waiting for adoption)

*Click here for Daizy's adoption profile.

*Click here for Daizy's story: the long version

Once upon a time I took in what I thought was 2 1/2 year old untrained Great Pyrenees to guard my future livestock. I was unprepared but thought I could handle it and Daizy was so sweet and had to stay in a small kennel otherwise.

Over time I made good progress with her and thoroughly enjoyed training such a smart and affectionate animal.  However, time also revealed a number of issues that I was unprepared or unable to deal with (and also that she was really an Akbash, not a Great Pyrenees). She was a little excited upon first meetings and had a tendency to jump her 75# self onto my young children (although got much better over time). She was an extreme resource guarder around other animals (but never humans) and would not allow other animals around any kind of food, hay, farm equipment, or anything else remotely interesting. But those things could be managed.
The main challenge was that she did not get along with other animals. She was biting and chasing my goats, and was also intolerant of even the sight of any other dogs.

These challenges would force me to either keep her all alone outside, or find her a home where she could be kept as a pet (no small children, good fence). I loved her and if I could have kept her as a pet I would have, but it would not be safe to keep her in the house with my small children, and there is not really a way to fence in my house/yard so she could be by the house. I cried when I made the decision to give her up but I knew I couldn't keep her.

Despite these challenges I know she can be an amazing pet for someone. She loves people very much. She is smart and since she has always gone potty outside could be house trained very quickly. She would most likely lounge around all day with "one eye open" like a true guardian. She would live a long, vigorous walk every day and lots of love, cuddles, and brushing from her family. If rural she could bark predators away in a fenced yard like she was bred to do, or if residential she could spend the night indoors where there is nothing to bark at so as not to disturb neighbors. But she would be a very loving companion.

If you know of a great home for Daizy please contact Four Paws Resuce.

Daizy's Story: the long version (Still Waiting for Adoption)

*Click here for Daizy's adoption profile

*Click here for Daizy's Story: the short version.

Daizy was my first dog. I never knew how much I loved dogs until I brought her home. I had recently moved to a rural property and wanted to get livestock. Many people recommended that I get a Great Pyrenees or other livestock guardian dog (LGD) that could also be a family pet. I did some breed research and decided to look for an older dog. I was going to wait until spring to get one so I could get some good fencing up and do more research. However, someone told me about a 2 year old GP nearby that was being rehomed by her owner.

I went to meet Daizy and fell in love with. her. She was such a sweetheart! Her owners had to keep her in a 10x10 kennel because she kept wandering away. They couldn't keep her in the house because she was so large and kept knocking over their small children. They loved her very much, especially the father, but they knew they couldn't keep her in the kennel and they didn't have a lot of other options. They also had to keep a shock collar on her to keep her from barking at night and disturbing the neighbors.

I didn't want to leave her like that so I decided not to wait until spring and bring her home. She was not trained as a livestock guardian but had been with horses until she started wandering. She had some food aggression around the horses but was fine with them after feeding time. My plan was to keep her in a 30x70 run until I could train her on a wireless fence with an e-collar. My neighbor was a dog trainer and was confident we could train her to respect the property boundaries over time and train her to do everything else I needed.

I joined several Livestock Guardian groups and I quickly learned that a large number of LGDs will blow right through the shock on an e-collar when sufficiently motivated (like chasing a predator), but would not be able to return home because of the shock. They would also be at a disadvantage in a fight with a predator because they would get the shock but not the predator. There are also potential side effects like the dog becoming fearful and aggressive toward all beeping noises--phones, watches, doorbells, etc.

I also quickly learned that Daizy was not good at walking on a leash, was terrified of thunder and storms in general, was an excellent digger, and hated other dogs. She kept digging out of the run and fence fighting with my neighbor's dogs about 1/2 mile away, and beyond if we didn't notice she was missing in time. I filled all her holes and reinforced the bottom of the fence, which worked fine until one thunder storm she learned she could jump over the fence. There was no containing her after that and I had no choice but to put her on a tether.

At the time I knew a tether was not ideal, but I didn't know all of the potential problems a tether could cause. There is, of course, the danger of getting caught in the tether, or having it come lose and drag behind her. If a predator came by it would keep her from protecting herself. And as I saw, over time it can cause dogs to become more aggressive. It was all I could do for the short term though.

My husband worked fast and furious and fenced off 1/2 an acre with very sturdy (and expensive) fencing and (later) we lined the bottom and top with hot wire. This finally worked to keep her contained.

In the meantime I had learned from the Livestock Guardian Dogs and Positive Training Methods Facebook page a lot about LGDs and positive training methods to work with them. It was a great place for support. I started reading books and watching videos on training and animal behavior so I could work with Daizy.

Daizy was not very food motivated, which made it hard to work with her. I started training her to leash walk just with praise and by stopping when she would pull on the leash. It worked fairly well and she got much better at not pulling. But if a car or other distraction came around it was really difficult to hold on. I had to wear gloves to walk her. I ended up taking a recommendation from someone online to buy a Walk Your Dog With Love front pull harness, which was a wonderful tool. I was pregnant even and it allowed me to prevent her from dragging me along. (I highly recommend this harness, and they have great customer service. The front of mine broke after over a year of using it and they sent me a whole new harness at their cost).

I taught Daizy basic commands like "sit" and "down". I wanted to teach her "speak" and "shush", but she really never barked unless there was a threat (read: car, animal, bird, feather blowing in the wind, etc), and she went over threshold so fast that  I couldn't teach her what speak meant, so I couldn't really teach what "shush" meant either. (I'm sure an experienced person could have done this).

I also began desensitizing her to me touching her feet so that I could trim her nails. They were getting very long and out of hand and she hated anyone touching her paws. I got to where I could trim one or two nails in a  session so I just started trimming two a day to try and get the quick to recede.  (The  Nail Maintenance for Dogs Facebook group was a good resource for this).

Since Daizy was intended to be a livestock guardian I also began training her with other animals. My adult cats would not let her anywhere near them so I couldn't really use them to train her. Someone dropped some kittens off by my house that we took in so I was able to train her to like the kittens. I would bring the kittens and a bagful of treats near her and reward her for being calm. She would sniff them and then ignore them and she got to be pretty good and calm with them. The only mishap we had was when my 2 year old daughter accidentally dropped a kitten in Daizy's food dish. She snarled and growled at the kitten which hightailed it and she was fine as soon as it was gone, and didn't hold a grudge about it the next time the kitten came around.

I also got some baby chicks and had them under a heat lamp in my garage. I brought one chick at a time in a clear plastic bin where Daizy could see but not reach it and reward her whenever she would look away or ignore the chick. I would bring it closer and closer until I could hold it by her and she would sniff it and turn away. Then I added two chicks to the bin and then three. She got really good. When the chicks came off heat I would bring their cage out where Daizy could watch but not reach them just to get her used to seeing how they behaved. She stayed nice and calm and just watched them. Someone also gave me some ducks and I started training Daizy with them in a similar manner.

One day I had them out there and I was inside eating lunch. Daizy was barking particularly persistently so I went to see what she was barking at. She was staying in one place staring me straight in the eyes. She usually runs around when barking at something so I thought it was strange. Then I realized she was standing right in front of the chick's cage and that the door was open and one of the chicks was out running around--a danger to the chick because of my cats. I was so proud of her for alerting me to the problem like a true guardian! One thing I learned about LGDs from her, and from reading, is that it is very important for them that things stay where they belong and if anything is out of place they make a big fuss about it. (Like after I added goats she made sure I knew something was wrong when the goats broke their hay feeder).

She even got much better at not jumping up on my children. She was always really hyper when we first would go to her or she would first meet someone, but after a few minutes she calmed down. I could let her walk all around my 7 month old baby and 3 year old daughter without knocking them down and they got to really like her.


Although we had made some  good progress I began to wonder if my home was the best place for her. She was still really hyper around my kids so they wouldn't give her any attention. Her aggression toward other dogs was a really big problem because LGDs are supposed to work in pairs for their good health and safety. If she would not accept other dogs I could not get her a partner. I thought maybe I could let her have a litter of puppies and she would accept her own pup as a partner, but hadn't decided on that yet. But it wasn't long before I decided her temperament should not be bred and I had her fixed immediately so if I did rehome her no one else could breed her either.

Next I bought two goat kids. My children could raise them for 4H and sell them at the county fair and I could begin training Daizy on some real livestock.  When I first got the kids Daizy was still on a tether. I put the goats in her old pen, with her tethered next to it. This way she was able to get used to them and observe their behavior without being able to reach them.

At first she was very roused by them and kept barking and posturing toward them, but it didn't last long. She got used to them and began to lay along the fence as close to them as she could like a good guardian would. The only issues were related to her food aggression. During feeding times she would bark and posture and appear to be very ferocious. One goat in particular really frustrated her because she knew Daizy could not reach her. She would completely ignore Daizy and as a result Daizy elevated her responses even more.

As she started to calm down we started to trust her more. She would get really excited when I needed to herd the ducks (which free ranged during the day) into the pens, but other than that she didn't seem too interested in them. Once my husband put her in with the ducks off leash so he could do some maintenance on her dog house and after a few minutes of initial fun-chasing, she laid under a table and just watched them. I was hopeful that I could keep them together, but discovered while filling duck food that it would not be an option unless I could find a way to completely hide the duck food from her. It appeared that if there was any food anywhere at any time, Daizy was going to guard it.

When we first finished the pasture fence I tethered Daizy inside it with the goats so they could get used to being together in such a way that the goats could get away if she decided to chase. I tethered the goats some distance away during feeding times so that there would be no food fights. After several days of watching Daizy and the goats lay down together during the day I started letting Daizy off tether with them. I saw no issues so I was hoping that she had transitioned to being a true guardian. I figured I could manage the resource guarding if that was the only issue.

Daizy did dig out of the new fence once during a thunder storm. That's when I added the electrical wire and staked down the bottom of the fence. She never got out of the fence after that. I did try moving some chickens into the pasture with her as well but that proved to be too much for her chasing instincts so I put them back in the other pen. (As a side note, it would have been a good idea for me to look into calming techniques to comfort her during storms, but I didn't even know that was a thing at the time).

Everything seemed wonderful. Daizy would still chase the goats in the evenings when she was most energetic (evening is like first thing in the morning for us). She listened to me when I told her to be calm ("calm" was a cue I had been teaching her throughout the whole process, giving her treats and petting her while she was just laying and watching things and saying "calm").

I wanted to be able to get her a companion dog because LGDs are supposed to work in pairs, and I thought it would help her burn off the excess energy and leave the goats alone, but I could not get another dog within 100 feet of her without her wanting to fight it. I had a consultation and a few appointments with a behaviorist to help me counter-condition her to other dogs. We were making a little progress but everything got interrupted shortly after.

When we shaved our goats in preparation for the county fair I discovered several puncture wounds in them that could only have been caused by Daizy. I was heartbroken because I had just made a post in the Positive Training group about how far she'd come and that I thought I would be able to keep her. The puncture wounds were like a big punch in the gut. That, and when I tried to add a rooster to her paddock she went ballistic and chased it all over the pasture (thankfully I beat her to it and put it back with the rest of the chickens).

I now had no way to separate her from the goats without a tether so once again I had to chain her. I hated her on the chain. I knew it wasn't safe, and by then I had seen that being on a tether increased her aggressive reactions when food or other triggers were present. I didn't want to make her worse. I thought about selling the goats early but if I did that she would be all alone in the pasture and that wasn't really a good solution either.

I had also noticed how she would linger by the gate and stare at the house all day just waiting for humans to come out an play with her. I finally decided that I was doing her no favors trying to keep her as a guardian any longer. Clearly she preferred to be around people and did not do well with other animals. I could not keep her as a house pet because of my small children and because I am not able to put a fence around my house/yard area.

I tried for a short time to find a new home for her myself, but I didn't feel right keeping her on a tether. I tried to get some rescues to take her but none of the Akbash, Great Pyrenees, or other LGD rescues would take her--they were too saturated already (and the GP rescue said she didn't even look pyrenees even though that's what she was sold to me as. They were convinced she was a purebred Akbash. Many other experts and breeders said the same thing).

A local Akbash breeder contacted me after seeing one of my ads and told me her age and circumstances fit a litter of Akbash puppies that were stolen from her before they were old enough to be separated from their mother. Shortly after they were stolen several "Great Pyrenees" puppies were advertised and sold in the classifieds. I had no way to verify this was true but many of her behavior problems could be connected to early separation. It also made sense that her last owner truly thought she was a pyrenees but everyone else thought she was an Akbash.

But regardless of breed, I had the paperwork all ready to fill out for the local Humane Society when a local all breed rescue, Four Paws, contacted me and let me know they found a possible foster home for her. The fosters came to meet her and the male of the household fell in love with her (anyone who meets her does). His wife was a little hesitant but they took her that day.

This was a good arrangement because she had never been inside and wasn't house trained but they had a good-sized yard with a high, sturdy fence. They had young children but she couldn't knock them over if she was outside, and it was much better than being tethered. Both Akbash and Great Pyrenees have coats that are made for all sorts of weather and Daizy has a proper double coat so living outside was no problem. Being in a backyard she was able to get lots of interaction. She stayed there for several months, but unfortunately the night barking (Akbash are nocturnal) was too much for the neighbors so Four Paws took custody of her and that's where she is today.

Four Paws has had many inquiries about her, but unfortunately most are not suitable. For some reason a lot of people request her as a service dog. I'm just going to say that I think having an Akbash as a service dog is not a good idea. Too many of them have food aggression or will not tolerate strange dogs--not a good combo for a dog you need to take in public. She'd probably make an excellent *therapy* dog, for home comfort. Just not a service dog. She is very smart and learns quickly, after all. I believe she would house train really fast.

I think what she'd love most is a nice rural home with a fenced yard and a family with older children or no children. She could even do a more residential area if she was house trained and kept inside. I do think she'd be an amazing pet and I hope she can find a wonderful home!

The Beginning

Me and my first cat, Snowshoe.

When I was a child I used to collect pets--at least as much as my parents would allow. I dreamed of owning a pet store someday. No mammals were allowed (too smelly and messy), but between my dad's biology classroom and my own collection I cared for various types of fish, hermit crabs, anole lizards, an iguana, a turtle, salamanders, a king snake, a tarantula, and after awhile, my parents broke down an allowed an outdoor cat.

I can't say I did much training with them. Back in the day before the internet I had to rely on what library books were available to me. I had a leash for my iguana (not very effective) but that was the extent of any pet training. It never occurred to me to try to train a tarantula or a snake. (I have since learned you can train just about anything, even a fish).

As I got older my interest in animals faded. They eventually died or donated to my dad's school and I was a busy and distracted teenager. I decided that caring for animals was too much trouble and dropped my plans for a pet store. My interests went more toward music and I eventually became a kindergarten teacher (kind of like animal training, I know :)).

Fast forward twelve  years or so and I end up living on an eight acre parcel of land. As it turns out, deer stay away from your garden if you have a dog barking at them so we ended up getting a livestock guardian dog to guard the garden (and I did end up getting chickens a few years before this) and the chickens. I also got goats to help train and keep my dog company. The desire to train this rescue dog is what got me interested in positive animal training. The only LGD training resource I could find was the Livestock Guardian Dogs and Positive Training Methods  page. I am incredibly grateful that I found this page before other more conventional training pages for reason
s I'll be sure to discuss in later posts.

I am now the happy caretaker of two livestock guardian dogs, 3 goats, and eventually I will add chickens, geese, more goats, and a few cows, and a house dog to the mix. Working with these animals has been a real joy and I hope you will find enjoyment with me as I continue to learn about how to care for and train these animals. 

Zeus (back), is an Akbash dog I brought home at age 2.
Hera (front), is a Great Pyrenees I brought home at age 5 months.

Xandie (mama Boer goat), and Fluffy and Chess (Boer/Savannah crosses) mowing the lawn.